In case you were in a forgiving mood today

[Cyborg Girl]

this is how ISIS treats peopel they don't like. Be warned, it is disturbing reading (not just because it's HuffPo).

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/1 ... 65655.html

I generally try to believe that there aren't evil people; just people who are brainwashed, corrupt, or sick. But these bastards make it pretty hard. How do you even arrive at an ideology that considers it acceptable to bury women and children alive?

(To think I had hoped Iraq would remain stable, too. Well... Fuck. Maybe we shouldn't have been in such a damn hurry to leave.)

Edit: posted under religion because ISIS are fanatics, whatever. There should be a specific word for "people who deserve to be pulverized by guided bombs."

[FZR1KG]

It's called religious fanaticism GJ.
You can find something just about in any religion, certainly the more popular ones that justify killing of those you don't like.
The Bible for example. So All the Christian, Muslim and Jewish people can decide to become radical extremists if they cherry pick their scriptures because they all have the same common source to choose from.

[gethen]

Heard a guy on NPR the other day who said that when people think god is on their side they will never negotiate. So I guess we shouldn't hold our breath waiting for ISIS to come to the negotiation table.

[Cyborg Girl]

Even if they did negotiate, could they be trusted to keep their part of any deal?

I read an article recently to the effect that ISIS bares more resemblance to a Fascist regime than to any historical caliphate... Reasoning with these people might be along the same lines as trying to appease a Hitler or bargain with a Stalin. They'd turn around and start massacring again as soon as it suited them.

Edit: actually this analogy seems quite apt, doesn't it? Germany went Nazi after a brief period of democracy, following humiliating defeat in WWI. Iraq is going gonzo Islamist after a brief period of democracy, following invasion and withdrawal by the US. The scapegoating of religious and ethnic minorities fits the pattern too. Seems to me like these nutcases should be stomped out quickly, before their horrible ideology starts spreading.

Edit 2: not that I'm any sort of scholar (or even history buff). But I'm seeing some very disgusting possibilities here.

[FZR1KG]

Heard a guy on NPR the other day who said that when people think god is on their side they will never negotiate. So I guess we shouldn't hold our breath waiting for ISIS to come to the negotiation table.

Nail. Meet head.

[Rommie]

Well this is eye opening and fucking depressing- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzCAPJDAnQA (Part 1 is also worth a watch, I love Vice News)

It should be noted that in Europe there has been increasing concern lately about all the kids who left (teens who snuck off from home or ppl in their 20s) to go fight for jihadists in Syria, now returning and being extremists there. I really think something is going to happen in that regard before it gets better and I am certainly not the only one- for example, they cordoned off the section of sidewalk in front of the Jewish WW2 memorial in Amsterdam since the beginning of summer and installed a police block there.

[FZR1KG]

That link was just disturbing.
WTF is wrong with people.

On a funny note, one of the old men made a comment to the public that he moved from the land of pretty women to the land of Muslims...
Wow. Guess he thinks Muslim women are ugly and wants pretty virgins. No wonder they are fucked up. lol

[Sigma_Orionis]

This morning I heard this radio interview with a former US general talking about ISIS.

Bottom Line: in his opinion, the only way to stop this nutjobs is with force.

"But at the end of the day the only thing that'll stop ISIS is you have to kill them, and, it's a harsh word to use but it's the reality of it. You have to stop them with force."

After watching the video Rommie just posted, i'm very much inclined to agree with the General.

[FZR1KG]

After watching the video Rommie just posted, I'm very much inclined to agree with the General.

No doubt.
There are a lot of nut jobs like that and I totally agree.

The problem with using force is that unless you go in for the long haul, you're better off not going at all.
Bottom line with that in mind and America's 4 year presidential elections:
You have to really be careful where you go in. If it takes longer than 4 years to achieve it you are risking making things worse.
That means almost all places the US is better off not engaging.
It solves nothing and makes you enemies while doing it.

[Sigma_Orionis]

Absolutely, Churchill's "Blood Sweat and Tears" might be a tad insufficient to deal with this.

[SciFiFisher]

IOW the only way to change the equation in someplace like Iraq is to stay for about 50 years and make sure that every single male over the age of 5 when you invade is dead in the first 5 years. Then you make sure that ALL the children go to schools ran by and vetted by the invading government. After about 20 years you let them start trying some local elections and allow them to elect a few representatives to a parliament. After about 40 years you actually start letting the parliament make some real decisions. at year 50 you hold a national election and allow them to start governing themselves. Parallel to that you implement a national police and military force that works closely with your military and they work together for about 50 years. You send their best and brightest to your military schools and police training. by the time 50 years have gone by the military and police forces are all ran from the top to the bottom by natives who have been thoroughly indoctrinated in your way of doing business.

Unfortunately, no one really believes that it is what it really takes. And if they did they are too shocked that you have to be that ruthless and think that far ahead to make it work. But, we are not talking about regime change. We are talking about changing a culture. Which means you have to literally rewrite it's traditions and history if you want to really change radically and "quickly" instead of taking 400 years or so.

[Sigma_Orionis]

The last time you said that I said something along that the alternative was how Rome dealt with Carthage after the 3rd Punic War.......

[Cyborg Girl]

... So, what exactly is the point of squashing the extremists if you have to become as unrelentingly nasty as them? Would you want to live in a country that deliberately murdered children en masse? What makes you think they might not pick your family next, for speaking out against the Fearless Leader or some such shit?

[FZR1KG]

IOW the only way to change the equation in someplace like Iraq is to stay for about 50 years and make sure that every single male over the age of 5 when you invade is dead in the first 5 years. Then you make sure that ALL the children go to schools ran by and vetted by the invading government. After about 20 years you let them start trying some local elections and allow them to elect a few representatives to a parliament. After about 40 years you actually start letting the parliament make some real decisions. at year 50 you hold a national election and allow them to start governing themselves. Parallel to that you implement a national police and military force that works closely with your military and they work together for about 50 years. You send their best and brightest to your military schools and police training. by the time 50 years have gone by the military and police forces are all ran from the top to the bottom by natives who have been thoroughly indoctrinated in your way of doing business.

Unfortunately, no one really believes that it is what it really takes. And if they did they are too shocked that you have to be that ruthless and think that far ahead to make it work. But, we are not talking about regime change. We are talking about changing a culture. Which means you have to literally rewrite it's traditions and history if you want to really change radically and "quickly" instead of taking 400 years or so.

Not what I was thinking.
Every situation is going to be different so you have to weigh what you have now vs what you are going to get.
This is pretty simplistic but I put cultures on a scale, like -10 to 10
Most hang around the 0 is mark, positive cultures value freedoms for all and go out of their way to be impartial.
Negative cultures are the opposite. They hate what is different and want to either kill or push out anyone different.

To see how much "your" particular culture will affect another you place both on the scale.
The further they are, they harder it is going to be to influence.
A change from neg to pos or visa versa is going to be difficult even is the absolute difference is small.
Though going from pos to neg is easier.

If we work with that, then to change a culture from an extremist type such as ISIS you don't even bother trying to go from -9 to +2, you go for -9 to -6. Or if you are really keen and have the resources, you can go from -9 to -3.
The thing is from what I've observed, people don't like change, be it for the good or the bad. What they do however is accept small incremental changes pretty easily because they just aren't worth the effort. They will however oppose large changes actively.
The shift from minus to plus is one they have to do themselves.
Changing a mentality from hate to acceptance isn't going to be achieved by an external force with any great success.
They have to do that and that may take generations of no conflict and persecution.

I we were to describe Iraq before the 90's and now, it was say a -2 or -3 and ISIS is pushing to towards a -7 or -8.
IOW, backwards. That's the backlash from the COW trying to get it into the positive without understanding, that isn't possible to do just by invading and getting out.

[Sigma_Orionis]

... So, what exactly is the point of squashing the extremists if you have to become as unrelentingly nasty as them? Would you want to live in a country that deliberately murdered children en masse? What makes you think they might not pick your family next, for speaking out against the Fearless Leader or some such shit?

Well, If I were to speak about two major experiences we had in Latin America, i'd say the record is mixed. But believe it or not, Public Opinion does sometimes manage to at least change the course.

First the case of Argentina

This was about as close to your nightmare scenario as it could get GJ, a country with a Right Wing Military Dictatorship dealing with a terrorist uprising. It's known as The Dirty War. By the early 80s, The public image of the Argentinian Military was so bad, that they tried to entice the public with a war against "UK Imperialism" (aka: the Falklands War ) after a humiliating loss to a small hastily put together UK expeditionary force, the Military had to relinquish power and the slow, sombre and painful process re-institutionalization began. I must say that IMHO Argentina is still a mess and its people have not learned the lesson though, despite that they're still picking up the pieces, and believe it or not they actually prosecuting and jailing the bastards that were in power during the dirty war.

The Case of Peru is a bit less somber.

in 1980 a Maoist Guerrilla Movement called "Shining Path" started a civil war in Peru by the time public opinion had enough of it (1990) we would could say that the rule of Law in Peru simply ceased to exist. Special Judges (called "Faceless Judges" because their identities were kept secret) judged and sentenced the Shining Path terrorists (and it had to be done that way because the Judiciary was reluctant to process the terrorists. Why? because the terrorists targeted judges who sentenced their comrades) It took close to 10 years of this until most of the guerrillas were either killed or surrendered. And I am sure that plenty of the more "shady" elements in Peruvian politics and in the Military had a field day. However it worked, Shining Path is virtually extinct: as you might know, its extremely hard to destroy a guerrilla movement, even today there's some activity by Shining Path, but its contained and most of the Peruvian People have little to no sympathy for them. The consequences of what governments had to do to deal with this crisis are still being dealt with, yet Peru survived and is a fairly stable democracy (by Latin American standards anyways) it seems like Peruvians did learn their lesson. Again, believe it or not the abuses that occurred during those days are being dealt with. Slowly, most probably very inefficiently but they are being dealt with.

My point is: it doesn't necessarily mean that you end up in a Dystopia, the risk is of course significant though, the consequences terrible and the cleanup process is slow and painful. But even in this caudillo-driven subcontinent it doesn't mean ending in a dystopia. It requires that Joe Average now when to start being ruthless and when to stop though, with all the risks it entails. THAT is what makes terrorism such an insidious threat.

[Cyborg Girl]

@Sigma, did these "Faceless Judges" at any point order the deliberate murder of hundreds of thousands of children? If not, then no, we're talking about entirely different things.

[Sigma_Orionis]

No that I know of.

However, I have to ask, what alternatives are there to fight a force of indoctrinated children who WILL use the fact that they are children to destroy you and your community?

[Cyborg Girl]

Pretty much my point. "Good intentions" don't really fly as an excuse when you start committing war crimes on that scale.

Edit: And no, I don't have a better solution. Does that make the war crime acceptable?

More to the point: you're eight years old, and about to die from a bullet to the head. What's your opinion?

[Sigma_Orionis]

No it doesn't. And if I were an 8 year old about to die from a bullet in the head, or if I were the one that had the put the bullet in the head of that 8 year old I don't know what I would do. Much less know how to deal with the consequences. However, IF something like that actually comes to pass, as sanguine as it may be, "good intentions" as an excuse will be the least of the problem though.

[Cyborg Girl]

Well, no shit.

I would prefer not to see anyone suffer, not to do harm to anyone. But when I realise that the species is in danger, then in my case sentiment gives way to the coldest reason.

Go on, guys, keep calling me a bleeding heart.

[Sigma_Orionis]

Nobody called you a "bleeding heart". just remember that Shakespeare saying "The Devil can quote scripture for its purpose". IF something like that actually comes to pass, you have just hit the bottom of the slippery slope.

[Rommie]

I will disagree with Fisher's statement because I think at the end of WW2 the same could have been said about Germany and Japan- they were just awful cultures that condoned murdering millions who disagreed with them. But then we are still in both those countries, so...

ISIS is pretty fucked up, but I don't think it's terribly surprising after the years of what's been going on in Syria that one of the most extreme of the bunch took over like that. Though I do wonder just how long they can keep it going at the current pace before running into the issues everyone runs into when having to govern over merely conquer.

[FZR1KG]

I will disagree with Fisher's statement because I think at the end of WW2 the same could have been said about Germany and Japan- they were just awful cultures that condoned murdering millions who disagreed with them. But then we are still in both those countries, so...

Not sure if I could compare even Nazi Germany to ISIS.
One had an ideology that seemed infectious till reality hit home. After that they had nothing to turn to.
The other has "God" on their side and the worse things get the closer they are to God.
It's like stripping all humanity from a person and putting hate in it's place.
Bit like a rabbid dog from my pov. Sometimes you just have to let them bite the bullet.

ISIS is pretty fucked up, but I don't think it's terribly surprising after the years of what's been going on in Syria that one of the most extreme of the bunch took over like that. Though I do wonder just how long they can keep it going at the current pace before running into the issues everyone runs into when having to govern over merely conquer.

That thought gets me too.
It's one thing to hate on everyone but actually doing something to help your own people is a lot harder.
As the guy said, the harder things are the closer to God he is.
So, what happens when things start to get better?

[SciFiFisher]

The last time you said that I said something along that the alternative was how Rome dealt with Carthage after the 3rd Punic War.......

Pretty much. If you really want to eradicate a culture that's about what it takes.

[SciFiFisher]

I will disagree with Fisher's statement because I think at the end of WW2 the same could have been said about Germany and Japan- they were just awful cultures that condoned murdering millions who disagreed with them. But then we are still in both those countries, so...

And those were cultures that actually were very compatible with ours.